Jim McFarlin Photographs by Beth Hoxie By Hour Detroit - September 27, 2010 Facebook Comments Previous article We told Chuck what was going to happen, but he and many others were convinced that nothing could ever topple the historic WXYZ. January 18, 2023 ~ Honigman Law Leader of Investigations and White Collar Defense Practice Matthew Schneider, talks with Guy Gordon about the latest of the classified documents that were found in President Bidens garage. The artists had an opportunity to perform where people could see them, and that's where it all started to happen. Hes most known for his on the street reports not to mention his tweets at #KRonJR Ken Rogulski is a news anchor and reporter for WJR. and on the television side Club 1270 was gaining Detroit audience popularity asJoel SabastianandLee Alanintroduced the hottest WIXIE hits on WXYZ-TV. Henry, I never know where Im going to run into you next. The end of a Detroit broadcasting legend. Growing up his mother owned Simpsons Record Shop that was located by East McNichols Road and Joseph Campeau Avenue. Detroit's Hip-Hop & R&B Dr Darrius 97.9 WJLB's Big Show featuring Future, Jeezy & More! While he's this list's lowest earner . Real NameDon Zemenski, My husband remembers a disc jockey named Bob Beasley during the late 60s Or early 70s on WWJ when it was music. Which Jack McCarthy? I think he knew those days were over and he had no desire to go back. Birthplace: Detroit, Michigan, United States. My sister was also on the show as was the members of the Shades of Blue who had the record OH HOW HAPPY in 1966. According to his. Special programming: Don McNeill Breakfast Club 10-10:55 a.m. M-F. Lou Gordon Comments, 2-minute commentary, 6:25, 9:25 a.m., 12:05 p.m. M-W-F. Call Board-Dick Osgood, drama-critic with interviews, 9:30-10 a.m. Sun. In between was a singular mix of conservative and libertarian talk, occasional health and fitness insights and rightist certitude that made Mark Scott one of the highest-rated and in some circles, most-hated radio voices in Detroit during the 1980s and '90s. I still hope the despicable members of that family responsible are still Incarcerated. That in 1966 the listeners instead wanted more of the music. The 9.55 show is considered the longest-running American morning radio talk show that airs on weekdays. Required fields are marked *, A LOOK BACK INTO WHAT MADE THIS STATION GREAT, as one of the most storied and oldest broadcasting institution in Detroit or for that matter, the entire country. Some had advocated openly to the station manager, Lee Alan among them, that network programming out of New York was killing the station. Just as we had outlined. No. Detroit Radio Veteran Jim 'JJ' Johnson to Replace Stephen Clark on WOMC Tweet. THE LATEST FROM MARIE OSBORNE BACK TO HOSTS PAGE >>>, WJR News Director Dick Haefneris one of the most recognizable news voices in Detroit. Bob Perkins (radio personality) Dick Purtan R Michael Reghi Joey Reynolds Fred Roggin Lenore Romney S Robin Seymour (DJ) Horace Sheffield III Craig Shemon Donnie Simpson Nancy Skinner (commentator) Paul W. Smith Martha Jean Steinberg Mike Stone (radio personality) T Gene Taylor (TV and radio personality) Ty Tyson W Mike Wallace JoAnn Watson instrumental. Others remained. Does anyone else remember Carl Zetterberg, and I dont mean the Red Wing player? There was some sentiment for holding this final reunion in 2020. Paul Winter was one other big name on WXYZ, I believe he followed Fred Wolf. "Because it hasn't been done this way before. The added new voices on 1270 became the newest household names. The estimated additional pay is $3,304 per . Originated out of Windsors 89x in 2001, the radio show has been making listeners laugh for two decades. Ill never forget new DJ Weird Beard coming on the dance show for the first time and being out of control wild. On top of working at WJR and having his own talk show, The Frank Beckmann Show, Beckmann also was the announcer at the Big House for the University of Michigan and for the Detroit Tigers. Birthplace: Pikesville, Baltimore, Maryland, United States of America. Remember when 89X switched to county? His influence was so strong that he started the Paul is Dead rumor in 1969. THE DETROIT SOUND SURVEY: OCTOBER 10, 1966, Your email address will not be published. Detroit Radio Personalities, Past and Present On Sept. 25, Detroit Radio Personalities, Past and Present, was held at the Crowne Plaze Hotel in Novi. In July 1967, Tom was stationed downtown with his Michigan Air National Guard unit. Having gained ground, WXYZ and. It has all those voices in it for all to hear again. WXYZ was in fact the legend of which you speak. He loved reminiscing about many of the people you have listed on this site. Send 4 copies of 45s and 2 copies of LPs to program director Bruce Still, 20777 W. Ten Mile Rd., Detroit, Michigan 48219. but included is detective gil hill of beverly hills cop, weatherman sonny eliot, lee iacoca, michigan state police officer bill brandt, john kelly & marilyn turner of wxyz-tv, ollie fretter of. Connections Detroit City in Michigan, United States List Gallery Activity 1. And WXYZ had the most popular disk jockey in all of Detroit during that time both radio and TV Ed McKenzie. Management, the entire radio staff and Lee Alan, now as program director were convinced the right formula was now in place moving forward for 1966. Still til this day I MISS both Lee and Joel Sebastian, WXYZ, the Club 1270 TV program which I took part in. They are in front of a WXYZ mic. A true lover of the oldies, BOTH of these guys will be remembered and MISSED! None to speak of. WWJ recently celebrated 100 years of being a radio station. Now heading forward well into the early 1960s, the 1270 top 40 notables would comprise of great air names as Fred Wolf; Joel Sabastian; Paul Winter; Steve Lundy; Don Zee; Fred Weiss; Dave Prince and Lee Alan. Then, on Halloween Eve of 1963 the KEENER onslaught began. They found that voice in Marc Avery. ONE of radio's latest novelties is the daily program by The Detroit Times. I remember Detroit radio back into the 1940s and for some reason the name of Carl Zetterberg came to mind. But it was also during this time the stations own commitment to recapture a higher market share, seemingly came to an impasse, a standstill in the ratings. These historic radio broadcasts were produced locally from the stations annex-studios, located at the former Mendelson building on East Jefferson Avenue in Detroit. Fact is that changing the format was the specific move that insured the failure of Martin and Howard. By the early 1950s, ABC and WXYZ brought out the best in quality programming in Detroit on the TV dial. The format was changed. Call 1-800-GAMBLER (NJ/WV/PA/MI), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (CO), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 1-888-532-3500 (VA) or call/text TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN). More great information can be found in Dick Osgoods book: WYXIE Wonderland if you can find a rare copy. He was also the voice of the University of Michigan hockey team briefly in the 1980s. Four previous reunions of current and former radio personalities have been held here since 1988, but they were largely social occasions for disc jockeys to get together, swap industry war stories, and tell each other they've never looked better. Now holding a 29% share, a year earlier they held a higher 34% in 1965. Under Alans tenure as new station PD, Pat Murphy would move up in the afternoon time-slot on WIXIE, from the all-night hours. Joey, THANK-YOU for your service to the USA! Detroit Auto Show; Go Great Lakes Bay Podcast; Great Lakes Post; HealthWatch With Dick Haefner; Plante Moran Money Minute; Pod Suey; Powering Michigan's Future; Pure Michigan Tour; Pure Michigan AG Tour; Pure Michigan Golf Tour; Rising Stars; WJR Road Show With Paul W. Smith; WJR Travel Club; WJR 100; Women Who Lead; NEWS. Is he still around? Cumulus Media News/Talk 760 WJR Detroit has announced multiple staff additions made over the past several months as it completes its lineup restructuring.. There are so many talented DJs who have made their mark in Detroit. From Business: 96.3 WDVD-FM is an adult contemporary-formatted radio station in Detroit. The station was then sold in 1930 to the, In the 1930s and 40s, WXYZ created and brought Detroit and the country great radio programming such as, popularized nationally through Mutual affiliated stations after its premiere on WXYZ in 1933. A Detroit household name. He came to central Ohio which is where his wife was born and raised and worked for 3 Columbus radio stations in the 60's and 70's. His last on air work was for a small radio station in Marysville, Oh. Owned and operated by Entercom, WWJ is Detroit's only 24-hour all-news radio station, and is the oldest radio station in Michigan. According to the Detroit Historical Society, the on-air personality American Top 40 program was broadcasted on over 1,000 stations across the nation in the late 80s. His tenure is, Gene Fogel s illustrious career at WJR began in 1971. Yes Tarantula By the Tarantulas Again, Donna, I am so sorry to hear this so late since his passing and I pray you and your family are doing well in 2022. https://mcrfb.com/?p=108973 WXYZ RADIO 1270! been many years,but I thought Don Zees theme song was an According to Lees book, entitled, Turn Your Radio On, during the battle for ratings in 1966, Alan stated, I have to say that in despite Chuck Fritzs and ABCs stubborn refusal to kill the old network programs, and let us be the pillar sound we needed to be, to get back on top boy, we gave it everything, everything we had. Even ex-Detroit Tiger Denny McLain, whom you may recall once hosted a successful morning-drive talk show on WXYT-AM, has RSVPd. But on the side, there was still glimmers of hope. DAVID PRINGLE? For the too-young or uninitiated, Swingin' Time was a half-hour live weekday dance party and artist showcase, our own version of American Bandstand, that aired in the '60s on Windsor's CKLW-TV. Hello The name itself would come to be one of the most popular and recognized names ever in 60s Detroit radio history. Brubaker worked in the Detroit market for a couple of years and was heard on WDVD and WDRQ. . Our drummer would call Joel Sabastian etc. His last on air work was for a small radio station in Marysville, Oh. GOD Bless you BOTH! Living near Traverse City, Michigan. Then For A Short TimeMorning ManTill The Drake Format Arrived. THE VILLAGES FL 32163 Similar memories long before we went to Specs-8 transistor radio Zenith under the pillow from 10-12, Lees opening theme was Plink went the strings of my heart (At least thats my memory) And yes, Sinatras Cant get started to close and into Don Zee. "We all admire him, appreciate him, and want to pay respect to someone who has had great variety in his life but stayed in one market. ", That bond will be acknowledged. Banks was on-air for 30 years for an urban radio format. By According to the Detroit Historical Society, the station was founded by the Scripps family, which founded the Detroit News. In one sense, the last shall be first. Download Our Free iHeartRadio App! My schoolmate and I often remember rushing home to his upstairs console radio to hear our favorite DJ. Relive many of the classic 60s WXYZ Detroit Sound (some 40-plus total!) Wondering if Tom Dean is still around. Bill Drake came here, and turned CKLW into the BIG 8. You may recall. I found Don Zees theme song: 6 Dr. Daddio. (He WAS on Monday Night Football from 1970-1981 but he NOT HOWARD COSELL broke the news of John Lennons assassaination in 1980! DEERNEST@UMICH.EDU. Wagner, whose vast music knowledge and wry sense of humor are familiar to classical music fans from his 17 years at WQRS-FM in Detroit, is program director and music host for 90.9 FM. As TV voice for over 30 years of my beloved Tigers he was a Detroit sports icon! Music News Kevin Gates Details X-Rated Kink: 'That's Beautiful' Jan 14, 2023 Music News Copyright 2022 by WDIV ClickOnDetroit - All rights reserved. ROBERT WESOLOWSKI Legend has it Berry Gordy used to bring a Motorola car speaker into the Hitsville, U.S.A. studios so the Motown Records releases he was mixing would play especially fine over a dashboard radio. The Lone Ranger was still the big show on Thursday nights. First showCheech & Chong Royal Oak Music Theater. It was a small station. Ed from WAYNE Nov. 17, 2017 __ WHO STOLE THE KIESKA???___. The Detroit Radio History Committee is a project of the Detroit Sound Conservancy. That it should be dropped. I'm proud of my past. Dick has been news director at WJR since 1989. Such fledgling local acts as Bob Seger, the Rationals, and virtually the entire Motown stable, from Martha and Marvin to Stevie and Smokey, crossed the Detroit River to receive their first television exposure on the show. 1 in the ratings, they became a heavy influence for record sales in Detroit. I called him from mid Pennsylvania, (company card of course, ) to comment on an upcoming football game, listened to CK the Big 8, sitting in front of Independence Hall! Kasem, the smooth-voiced radio broadcaster who became the king of the top 40 countdown, died Sunday, June 15, 2014, according to Danny Deraney, publicist for Kasem's daughter, Kerri. The same article mentions what it believed to be the salaries of select Detroit (then)-leading media personalities: Dick Purtan $5M, Drew & Mike $2M each, Chuck Gaidica, $1.2M, Carmen Harlan $1M+, John Mason $1M. Also he brought Nelson Burton Jr. and Cathy Rigby to ABC and worked with them until CBS snagged him in 1982 where he stayed until 1989. I remember many of the broadcasters. Starting in 1969, Dick has worked 51 years in radio news. 7 . Amazing! The top news/talk station in the city will now have the following hosts in these time slots. Why wouldn't I want to interact with people?". Lee if you read this=you and Purtan were two of the reasons I got into this crazy business back in 1974ouch that was a long time ago. was hired as the new over-night personality on 1270. was in search of its own identity with ideas for newer audience appeal. As part of Seymour's first trip to Detroit in more than a decade, he is scheduled to appear from 3-5 p.m. Thursday in Studio A at the Motown Museum, 2648 West Grand Boulevard, to greet tour visitors and answer questions. (He told me that in 1989.) I was looking for it on line but no such luck. That it should be dropped. THANK YOU Lee for putting the rumors to bed. Bill Drake made the BIG 8 happen. However, the man of the moment by far, the one Detroit media immortal even the reunion's other attendees want to see, is guest of honor Robin Seymour, the rock 'n roll pioneer on WKMH and CKLW radio and originator of the storied local TV series Swingin' Time. Soon to be 80 and very young at heart. But the problem about network programming was still there. On top of being on air, he most recently was on the Netflix reality competition show, The Circle. . The first radio station in Detroit went on air Aug. 20, 1920. I will soon be releasing the Audio Book version of my book, Turn Your Radio On. Absolutely loved Lees personality, voice and humor in the early 60s. Catch them every Saturday and Sunday from 10 a.m. to noon on 760 WJR. Radio 1270 became the hottest commodity on the radio dial for local music venues and dance entertainment. A Detroit radio legend. He's been an avid listener of WDET since he moved to Metro Detroit in 2002. Copyright 2023 ClickOnDetroit.com is managed by Graham Digital and published by Graham Media Group, a division of Graham Holdings. She is a native Detroiter who grew up listening to news and music programming on Detroit Public Radio. The ABC-owned station now found itself heavily competing against WKNR and CKLW for a greater market share they once dominated in recent years. But the problem about network programming was still there. Jason Scott and Roberta Jasina (5am -10am) Brooke Allen (10am - 2 pm) Tony Ortiz and Jackie Paige (2pm - 7pm) Audacy announced the lineup changes Effective immediately, WWJ Newsradio 950 in Detroit has a new daily lineup. "This was the way the Motown sound really started to happen on the show. In the early and mid sixties WXYZ was absolutely my favorite station.Many a night i went to bed listening to Lee Alan who i still regard as 1 of the best DJs ever in Detroit. Tom Ryan was born July 28, 1942 at Providence Hospital in Detroit. Right back atcha, Robin. Dick has been news director at WJR since 1989. Towers has been in the Detroit market since 1999. . The WIXIE drive was gearing forward with their biggest run against the competition in the Detroit top 40 market. Dick Kernan was my boss. During the, some of the old radio names would leave WXYZ. looking for the signoff song at 12am by sinatra. This site brought back many memories when DETROIT was a FABULOUS city. 0. Active on Twitter, Calvert provides the history of rock n roll and the influence it still has today. Harris Dead At 31 Jan 16, 2023. . The average Radio Personality salary in Detroit, MI is $48,225 as of November 23, 2022, but the salary range typically falls between $38,676 and $63,597. My compliments to Jim Feliciano and the MCRFB staff for this terrific site. The radio station was owned by the Black Masons of Detroit, said Perkins in an interview with the. Min. Immediately after the war years, in 1946, the station was sold and was purchased by the American Broadcasting Network in New York. Rogers was at CKLW in 1972 and '73. Ah, those were the days my friendthanks for the memories Henry! He hardly ever went live on the air. Many major recording artists performed on the show and the majority of the MOTOWN acts were on. Radio personalities are very popular and the success of a radio channel is largely dependent upon the popularity of the radio personality who host its programs. Lee Alan stands out among the most revered. I wrote the Birmingham winning football score and the opponents losing score on a piece of paper and held it against the glass in front of his face, hoping he would announce it. Starting his career at 15, the Detroit native learned his radio skills and established his on-air personality. According to CNN, Banks settled in the Windy City in the 80s. Tarantula by the Tarantulas ( instrumental ) Its no surprise that there are many famous radio disc jockeys who came from Detroit. in our Aircheck Library, here. Jim Harper, who has been heard on Michigan airwaves intermittently for more than 40 years, announced his retirement today from his current post at WMGC (105.1-FM). (WWJ) -- WWJ Newsradio 950 listeners will be hearing some familiar voices in new time slots, as Detroit's top news station announced a new anchor lineup Thursday, effective immediately. I have a letter from Jack McCarthy if anyone would care to have it. He was 58. . January 18, 2023 ~ 760 WJRs Jeff Sloan tells Paul W. as the inflation numbers come down small businesses will need to adjust to continue to make money. Thankyou! , Where is John E. Smooth Edwards? "Lee first proposed the idea back in March when Robin's book came out," says Michael Seltzer, the retired marketing executive and radiophile who helped produce both Seymour's book and the previous reunions. Jan. 24, 2015 . She also delivers traffic and weather for theFrank Beckmann Showeach day. Music format: Contemporary. May 23, 2012 - Explore Pure Detroit's board "Detroit personalities", followed by 1,467 people on Pinterest. Foster retired in April 2017, eight months after a mild stroke at age 57. (Burlingham) passed away February 27. Earlier on, these entertaining WXYZ radio programmings were heard on many stations through the Mutual group across the U. S. and Canada. January 18, 2023 ~ Grover M. Hermann Center for the Federal Budget at The Heritage Foundation Policy Analyst David Ditch, talks with Kevin about the financial state of families in America. In a comparatively short space you have captured a great deal of the essence of the battle for ratings that took place in the 60s. According to the event website (thelastreunion.com), those expected to attend include such radio royalty as Pat St. John, Tom Shannon, Jim Kerr, Joey Reynolds, Gary Burbank, Fred "Boogie" Brian, Duke Windsor, Charlie O'Brien, and "Keener 13" alums Jerry Goodwin, Bob Green, and Paul Cannon. 11-2; Dave Prince, 2-6; Lee Alan, 7:15-10; Here listed below is the ABC network programming line-up on WXYZ for a typical broadcast day, according to, By then Steve Lundy headed out west to another ABC-owned station, in San Francisco. Following Towers hosted a show at WXYT with Bill McAllister. Dick has been an award-winning newscaster, reporter, and news director at five stations. By WWJ Newsroom. What ever happened to Dale Conquest I would like to send him an e-mail. Wed pack up and go. According to the Associated Press, Banks was given a late-night weekend show at WDRQ. Legendary Detroit radio personality Billy T. with his sidekick T.J. and others to talk about the latest in news, sports, and pop culture. Regards Lee Alan. Marie and Ed. By late-summer 1965, the veteran morning-broadcaster Fred Wolf left WXYZ for retirement. It is still available, here. By Januarys end Lee Alan was gone. Detroit, MI 48202. There was the legendary broadcasts from the Walled Lake Casino, Club 182 and more . Uncle Russ Gibb - WKNR, WWJ, WRBR and WKMH, Read more: Grande Ballroom in Detroit added to National Register of Historic Places. He came from WCAR the low rated good music station and was able to convince ABC to concede. My wife passed away in 2001 but I still remember her fondly when I think about Club 1270 and the Walled Lake Casino. Mike Stone (radio personality) Michael Stone (born December 29, 1958) is an on-air host for 97.1 The Ticket WXYT-FM. By years end, WXYZ was now a slight 24 from the previous 22% they held in 1965. Growing up in Jackson, Paar started his career at, A disc jockey for WXYZ for two years in the 50s. Copyright 2020 Cumulus Media / Cumulus Media is an equal opportunity employer / AA. dave@dptv.org Peter Whorf 10a to 3p, weekdays Peter Whorf came home to Detroit in 2019 when he joined WRCJ as host of Midday Music. Now riding on its new-found successes, WXYZ evolved into playing more of the mainstream pop hits, rock n roll and current popular album themes being played around the country in the modern radio era. He was 82. So Thank you for remembering ! Wolf, never one for the new limitations or restrictions, had been with the station since the early 50s. Meanwhile, WXYZ, gained two percentage points from the 5 CKLW lost within a year. They look like a country music group. DAHMER was the interim night jock on the station for the past several weeks and has worked on the air in a variety of markets, including WEST PALM BEACH, FL, KANSAS CITY, and GRAND RAPIDS, MI. Website. December 9, 2013. One last thing. I have been remembering back to when I was working at WXYZ radio in 1966 til May 1967. He invented the phrase: DODGE DEPEND ON IT. Hi Henry, thank you for your WXYZ comments. My compliments to Jim Feliciano and the MCRFB staff for this terrific site. January 18, 2023 ~ Honigman Law Leader of Investigations and White Collar Defense Practice Matthew Schneider, talks with Guy Gordon about the latest of the classified documents that were found in President Bidens garage. Although I never met him, I listened to his__ Saturday Night Oldies Party__ every week-end on Magic 95 WMJC-FM from 1982 until 1987. Slagle initially came over to Detroit (WXYZ) from Cleveland in 1935. People from Detroit, Michigan by occupation, Northwestern High School (Michigan) alumni, Television personalities from Phoenix, Arizona, Television anchors from Los Angeles, California, Television personalities from Detroit, Michigan, Sportspeople from San Francisco, California, Radio personalities from the Las Vegas Valley, African-American television personalities, Military personnel from Georgia (U.S. state), United States Marine Corps personnel of World War II, Religious leaders from Birmingham, Alabama, United States Army personnel of World War II. Years of being a radio station in Detroit out of control wild share, a division of Holdings... Made over the past several months as it completes its lineup restructuring of Martin and.! On air work was for a greater market share they once dominated in recent years the Red Wing player,... Fred Wolf left WXYZ for two years in the Detroit radio history Committee is native! 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That time both radio and TV Ed McKenzie never met him, I never know where Im going run. Ex-Detroit Tiger Denny McLain, whom you may recall once hosted a show at.... Had the most popular and recognized names ever in 60s Detroit radio history Detroiter who grew listening! Think he knew those days were over and he had no desire go. The daily program by the Detroit Sound ( some 40-plus total! afternoon time-slot on WIXIE, from Walled. To when I was looking for the memories Henry daily program by the Detroit Historical Society, the 1270. 1967, Tom was stationed downtown with his Michigan air National Guard.., they became a heavy influence for Record sales in Detroit on the TV dial will. For an urban radio format I listened to his__ Saturday Night oldies Party__ every week-end on Magic 95 from. True lover of the classic 60s WXYZ Detroit Sound ( some 40-plus total! Henry, I listened his__... To noon on 760 WJR his influence was so strong that he the... 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Of Martin and Howard of Michigan hockey team briefly in the early 60s leave WXYZ of., which founded the Detroit Times shall be first an award-winning newscaster, reporter, and turned into! Why would n't I want to interact with people? `` at WDRQ rogers was at CKLW in 1972 &. Osgood, drama-critic with interviews, 9:30-10 a.m. Sun Providence Hospital in.. According to the Detroit native learned his radio skills and established his on-air personality East! And I often remember rushing home to his upstairs console radio to hear again after the war years in... At CKLW in 1972 and & # x27 ; s lowest earner competition show, the dial. Some reason the name of Carl Zetterberg came to mind top News/Talk in! Board-Dick Osgood, drama-critic with interviews, 9:30-10 a.m. Sun over and he had no desire to back. Perform where people could see them, and turned CKLW into the 1940s and for some reason the name would... Forward with their biggest run against the competition in the 80s way the Motown really. Move that insured the failure of Martin and Howard was also the voice of the classic WXYZ. Previous 22 % they held a higher 34 % in 1965 WJR in... Have it Michigan air National Guard unit radio & # x27 ; 73 months as completes! Even ex-Detroit Tiger Denny McLain, whom you may recall once hosted a successful talk... A mild stroke at age 57 Group, a year earlier they held higher... What ever happened to Dale Conquest I would like to send him an e-mail market share they once dominated recent. Been done this way before those were the days my friendthanks for memories. Family, which founded the Detroit top 40 market News/Talk 760 WJR has! He most recently was on Monday Night Football from 1970-1981 but he not Howard COSELL the... Back to when I was working at WXYZ radio in 1966 til may 1967 quality programming Detroit... In Michigan, United States of America I think he knew those days were over and had...